Curse

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 01:44 PM // 13:44

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Originally Posted by Sanji

JLike UAS, Anet has made their opinion clear on the matter. To get the most of Guild Wars, you have to experience and enjoy both parts of the game. They want both sides to interact with each other and have expressed that they intend to work to make both sides interact with each other smoothy, not violently rip it apart.

Agreed, to get the most out of guild wars one should experience both the cooperative game and the competitive game. But, your response is worded like a response to the idea of removing competition from the RP game. This is not what I am advocating. My vision of seperation is not of seperation between cooperative play and competitive play. My vision of seperation is of seperation between RP characters and PVPonly characters. I dont' see why there cannot be a seperate place for those who do not value the roleplaying game at all, while maintaining the roleplaying game and competitive areas within that game where RP characters can face other RP characters.

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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

As far as separating PVP-only characters from PVE characters in competition, Theocrat, you really have yet to post a convincing reason. The thing is, what makes a PVP-only character "versatile," as you put it? The fact that he is entirely expendable in terms of taking up a character slot. You would not be so quick to delete a PVE character in favor of making another build. That is ALL that makes one more versatile than the other.

So, why complain about that when all you really have to do to keep the useful "versatility" of a build-on-demand character is KEEP A FREE SLOT OPEN!!

As you said before, a Mo/Me from PVE is on the same playing field as a PVP-only Mo/Me, the difference being that the PVP-only char can be ditched in favor of a different build without the "time lost" factor of deleting a PVE character.

So, because I choose not to play the game the way you do, I dont have a right to question the balance between pvponly and RP characters?? If you want to leave a slot open for pvponly its your right to do so, I dont feel that choosing to have 4 RP characters should place me at a disadvantage. If the only reason for seperating pvponly and the RP game were the imbalance between the two types of player I would espouse a different solution. Actually an easier way to balance the two would be to rework refund points for RP characters. But As I said that imbalance is not the only reason to remove the ties between the RP game and the pvponly game.

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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

As far as your comments concerning "twitch" players and "roleplaying" players, I think that rather than supporting that gap in approach by modifying the game play experience around them individually, it is appreciable that Guild Wars in its current state appeals to both (and more) crowds. Guild Wars, to be experienced FULLY, requires both roleplaying and twitch skill, and I do not see how privileging either one OR the other (but not both at the same time) is a noble effort.

Again I agree that the best way to enjoy the game is to experience both cooperative play and competitive play, again, I'm not advocating the removal of competitive play from the RP game at all. Again, I see no convincing argument that there should be ties between the RP game and the pvponly game. Other than favor, which should be contested between RP characters, the Pvponly game has no impact on the RP game, so why not remove its dependancy on the RP game?? That way people who dont give a rats ass about cooperative play wont be forced to do so. That way people who enjoy building and keeping a character around can compete on a level playing field with other people who enjoy building and keeping a character.

Sanji · Aug 30, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

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Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Agreed, to get the most out of guild wars one should experience both the cooperative game and the competitive game. But, your response is worded like a response to the idea of removing competition from the RP game. This is not what I am advocating. My vision of seperation is not of seperation between cooperative play and competitive play. My vision of seperation is of seperation between RP characters and PVPonly characters. I dont' see why there cannot be a seperate place for those who do not value the roleplaying game at all, while maintaining the roleplaying game and competitive areas within that game where RP characters can face other RP characters.

PvPing RP characters (made obvious by their Black Dyed 15K/Fissure armor or non-PvP Starter weapons) seem to make up a noticable minority in Random Arena. If we give exclusive PvP players absolutely no reason to play with them, then what will the RP characters be left with? I don't even want to imagine what an RP character exclusive tombs or GvG ladder would be like.

Sure, it might be more balanced in a sense, but it seems like it would end up neutering the pool of competition in the RP aspect of the game when they are faced with a choice such as European server vs. American, people who used to make a point to always PvP with their decked out RP character may very well convert to the PvP exclusive environment.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

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Originally Posted by Sanji

PvPing RP characters (made obvious by their Black Dyed 15K/Fissure armor or non-PvP Starter weapons) seem to make up a noticable minority in Random Arena. If we give exclusive PvP players absolutely no reason to play with them, then what will the RP characters be left with? I don't even want to imagine what an RP character exclusive tombs or GvG ladder would be like.

Sure, it might be more balanced in a sense, but it seems like it would end up neutering the pool of competition in the RP aspect of the game when they are faced with a choice such as European server vs. American, people who used to make a point to always PvP with their decked out RP character may very well convert to the PvP exclusive environment.

Of course RP characters are a minority in pvp, they are at a disadvantage.

I belive you underestimate the number of people who would keep thier RP characters and enjoy both the cooperative and competitive aspects of the game if RP characters were to face RP characters in competitive areas. After all, you said yourself that experiencing both aspects of the game is the best way to enjoy GW.

Sanji · Aug 30, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

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Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Of course RP characters are a minority in pvp, they are at a disadvantage.

That could (and should) be fixed with better access to collector items, increased Rune drops, and removed refund points

At least, those are the only disadvantages I see a PvE player has. Even then, there are plenty of PvP equalvalent Collector itemsand a PvE player can always buy a Rune for their character.

There's really nothing positive I can say about refund points. I'm glad you can switch stats around, but refund points just punish people for wanting to switch their build around. I don't see the need for it and it often gives my Guild Leader problmens in being able to be PvP with her RP character.

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Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I belive you underestimate the number of people who would keep thier RP characters and enjoy both the cooperative and competitive aspects of the game if RP characters were to face RP characters in competitive areas. After all, you said yourself that experiencing both aspects of the game is the best way to enjoy GW.

Perhaps I do, but I can't imagine that the current state of the game needs fixing (In either end) to the extent that they need to do this. I do not think it would be worth carving up the playerbase.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

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Originally Posted by Sanji

Perhaps I do, but I can't imagine that the current state of the game needs fixing (In either end) to the extent that they need to do this. I do not think it would be worth carving up the playerbase.

I dont see it as carving up the playerbase, I prefer to think of it as not insisting that oil and water can be mixed if you smash them together hard enough. I'm not saying the current state of the game is awful, I'm saying it can be better yet if Anet would make corrections to stop penalizing people who like developing a character in competitive play. Also, I think the game could be much improved on the RP side if they didnt "force" those who disdain such things as cooperative play, and character development, to play the RP game at all. As it is, with those people "forced" to do so, those people are constantly undermining the RP game.

Red Sonya · Aug 30, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

There are two types of SKILL in this game, intelligence skill and character skills. One can be greater than the other and one can do well, by the same token one can be better than the other and one do crappy, depends on which one is better than the other.

Intelligence skill will most ofen win out over character skills to a degree. And there is no grinding for intelligence skill. I walked into this game the very first day, made a pre-built character and proceeded to kick butt in all the arenas. I made faction, fame and rank without an ounce of pve play to begin with. Then I moved to the pve game and find that with new skills my intelligence skill does increase but not at a drastic rate, there's a balance there for a reason. I could have every skill in the game for my character and still my intelligence skill will determine my ability way over my characters skills. So quit whinning about the grind, there isn't one, some just want everything all at once and it's just not going to happen, they've already said so, so why keep harping on it?

They aren't going to stop Droknars runners and I read that in last weeks fansite friday so I see no reason to continue to harp on why it's wrong or effects the game. It's in the game, it's meant to be, it's intended to be that way. So, I have dropped it for something else that I haven't seen official statements that it's ment to be that way or intended to be that way like soloing monks in UW.

hehe

JoDiamonds · Aug 30, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

The original poster stereotypes and generalizes to an insulting degree, which I'll just ignore and cut to the proposed "solution". The proposed solution is terrible, especially when there are similar yet obviously better solutions.

Total separation is an inane idea. At the most extreme, make a PvE only Arena or other playing fields, but there's no reason to actually completely separate PvP from PvE players, especially at the top levels. That said, the lower level Arenas already are PvE only.

If you just don't like some of the other players or posters, well, it's a big world. Learn to get along with other people, even those who repeat things you apparently don't like hearing.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 30, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

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Originally Posted by Sayshina

Oh, one fundamental error in the GW compared to MTG comments. Those who are serious PT players HAVE ALL THE CARDS. If you don't, you are not competitive. I gave up chasing the title during Academy Summer. There was a wedding to save for, and the damned cards had to go. So I quit playing, because trying to play tournies as a casual gamer is futile. The same applies to this game. If you show up at the qualifier and discover that the deck archetypes are totaly different from what you thought, you MUST rework your deck immediatly. If you try to show up for GvG, and discover the metagame has shifted, you have no choice but to spend the next week or two grinding out the necessary skills, all the while hoping your teamates are keeping up.

There's no error, let alone a fundamental one. The "pro tour" equivalent of a Guild Wars player has... ALL THE SKILLS UNLOCKED (at least the ones worth having, just like there's no point to having the crap MTG cards). That's exactly the parallel I was trying to draw. That in both games, level of competitiveness has to do in part with how easily you can adapt, and that has to do with your resources (cards/skills) which has to do with time spent acquiring them.

I am really confused about the whole "PVP characters are better" issue. Do you guys even know what a PVP-only character is? The only thing that sets him apart from a PVE is that you wouldnt' think twice about deleting him and putting another one in his place. As long as you have a free slot open to create a PVP-only character, you can damn near mirror your PVE one or create an altogether new one. As long as you have enough skills unlocked, you're at NO disadvantage.

If I take my War/Ele into Tombs, and it turns out I need not a War/Ele but a Necro/Ele, then I will not bitch and whine and cry about how inflexible my PVE War/Ele is. I will build a PVP Necro/Ele in a matter of minutes, using the skills I unlocked while playing PVE! (I have changed secondaries with my War enough times that I have a good number of all the skills unlocked.)

So, before complaining about this gulf in versatility, consider what you're actually talking about and what you yourself can do about it -_-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

So, because I choose not to play the game the way you do, I dont have a right to question the balance between pvponly and RP characters?? If you want to leave a slot open for pvponly its your right to do so, I dont feel that choosing to have 4 RP characters should place me at a disadvantage. If the only reason for seperating pvponly and the RP game were the imbalance between the two types of player I would espouse a different solution. Actually an easier way to balance the two would be to rework refund points for RP characters. But As I said that imbalance is not the only reason to remove the ties between the RP game and the pvponly game.

I think that most certainly, choosing to have 4 RP characters should put you at a disadvantage. You can't expect to have the cake and eat it at the same time. You have the ability to leave a slot open, so there! That's the solution, and it's already available; no need to seriously change the game setup. If you don't have enough slots, then that's the real problem.

Quite honestly, removing the ties between RP and PVP is ridiculous. The whole point of Guild Wars is it provides you numerous ways to approach the game, yet it allows you to reach the same level of competitive play via any of those ways. If you don't take advantage of what they give you, for instace by using up all 4 character slots on PVE characters, then you are in absolutely no place to complain about your own, SELF-IMPOSED lack of versatility.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

.Quite honestly, removing the ties between RP and PVP is ridiculous. The whole point of Guild Wars is it provides you numerous ways to approach the game, yet it allows you to reach the same level of competitive play via any of those ways. If you don't take advantage of what they give you, for instace by using up all 4 character slots on PVE characters, then you are in absolutely no place to complain about your own, SELF-IMPOSED lack of versatility.

Seperation of RP and PVP only characters would also allow you to reach the same level of competitive play via seperate routes, the difference would only be wether or not you have any interest in the Roleplaying aspect of the game. Your opinion is to be respected, but I still reject the notion that because I dont play the game the way you do, by leaving a slot for PVPonly, that I should be at some kind of disadvantage.

Cutting the Ties between RP and PVPonly would not only allow those who want nothing to do with the RP game (obviously not me) to choose thier own path to high end pvp without having to be "forced" to play the RP game. Meanwhile, the RP game can be made into something above and beyond simply something meant to unlock skills for pvponly play.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 30, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I am not sure anyone is really forced to play the RPG game, since you can unlock all skills and upgrades and runes using Faction acquired through PVP. All the mechanics are in place to avoid ever building an RPG character.

As for making the RPG more deep and less of a "grind to unlock PVP resources," well that's not really hindered by the PVP/RPG connection. It's hindered more than anything by ANet's own game design abilities, which may be lacking in creativity ^_^

MSecorsky · Aug 30, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

I am not sure anyone is really forced to play the RPG game, since you can unlock all skills and upgrades and runes using Faction acquired through PVP. All the mechanics are in place to avoid ever building an RPG character.

As for making the RPG more deep and less of a "grind to unlock PVP resources," well that's not really hindered by the PVP/RPG connection. It's hindered more than anything by ANet's own game design abilities, which may be lacking in creativity ^_^

You can get the faction through PvP... but what do you need to actually unlock items/runes/skills?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

I am not sure anyone is really forced to play the RPG game, since you can unlock all skills and upgrades and runes using Faction acquired through PVP. All the mechanics are in place to avoid ever building an RPG character.

As for making the RPG more deep and less of a "grind to unlock PVP resources," well that's not really hindered by the PVP/RPG connection. It's hindered more than anything by ANet's own game design abilities, which may be lacking in creativity ^_^

Well, thats why I used "" around forced. I dunno that anyone is forced to play the RP game, but from what I gather current state of faction gain makes it "quicker" to get elites at least in the RP game.

Personally, I think the RPG is hindered by the fact that so many see it, and not all the Inaccurately (unfortunately) as nothing more than a means to an end that they would rather skip if possible. Particularly if RP characters are going to be at a continuing and disadvantage to PVP only characters in competitive areas.

Ghull Ka · Aug 30, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I wanted to add my $0.02 to this line of thought, meekly, humbly, and hopefully not in a fashion that will incur some of the amazingly horrible flames that have been thrown about in this thread.

I believe that "skill beats time spent playing" is a falsehood. If you don't have as much "time playing" as your enemy, then your enemy will have a better equipped skill bar than you will have, since he/she has "grinded" longer than you have in order to earn that better equipped skill bar.

I was trying to organize a neat pvp build for my guild, and over 75% of the skills required for my teammates to use had yet to be unlocked by their pve-heavy accounts. So, we were unable to play with this build, because it would take a long time to either quest for those skills, beat the missions required to capture them, or earn the experience required to use skill points to buy them. Or, conversely, it would take an enormous amount of *successful* pvp play to earn the faction necessary to unlock the skills required.

"Skill" never became a factor. We were defeated by "time playing" before we ever entered a battle.

MarkyX · Aug 30, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

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First point... you need a PvE character to visit the Priest of Balthazar. Period. If you're pure PvP, you're hosed.

I don't mind this. I think in a game like GW, you should play Single Player and the storyline at least ONCE to get to the more advanced features in the game. It might be old school design, but it works.

It's kind of like beating Doom 3 in order to get Nightmare difficulty.

However, I wish it was possible for spending your skill points on your PvP character to unlock more skills for PvP, plus you can use your faction to unlock other skills.

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Second point... if I want to try a different bow on my char (but leave everything else the same), I need to delete and completely rebuild that character.

Agreed.

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Twitch gamers read the box and belive that this game was gonna be some kind of 3rd person-Roleplay-shooter. Although such a game is a contradiction by nature. So they are up in arms because of the so called "grind" in this game. They cry about having to unlock skills because doing so makes those who spent the time doing it have an advantage and such they believe the game is time > skill. I dont see this to be the case. It takes NOTHING by comparison to any other online ROLEPLAYING game on the market to make one character competitive in PVP.

Even though I would be classified as a twitch gamer (Battlefield 2, Rocket Arena 3, Diablo 2), what you say is a total generalization; in other words, you are full of shit.

There is grind in this game. Most games are full of grind. The problem with Guild Wars is you spend way too much time doing the same crap over a little reward.

Battlefield 2's ranking system can be considered a grind; you need to amass a certain number of points to unlock a few weapons. Yet, you never ever hear anyone complain. You know why? The game is diverse, and what is considered 'grinding' is the norm player: Killing a lot of visible minorities (or Americans) with your guns, tanks, boats, and planes. It takes you to the good stuff right away.

Problem with GW is you don't get the good stuff right away. I've probably played guild wars for well over 100 hours and I still don't even half the stuff unlocked. I want to try new builds, but I can't because of the low faction rate and really bad tomb groups.

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Whats more, many of these people who cry that the game needs to have all skills unlocked for pvp so that it can be a level playing field, and so that anet can "keep thier word" about the skill > time comment on the box, (which I belive they've done an admirable job of doing.) are the same ones who will go out of thier way to make the introductory pvp areas (ascalon,shiverpeak) completely unbalanced, and a completely unlevel playing field.

Huh?

First of all, no they haven't kept their word. People who farm all day get the best runes (which, if you want to be competitive now after the weekends, is a must) and best weapon unlocks. How is Anet keeping their word when the person with the better runes and more time to unlock skills against someone who has a full time job and can only play an hour a day?

I don't believe in UAS, because that would totally take away an individual's goal to PvP. I like the idea of unlocking stuff, but I want to unlock stuff FASTER. There is hundreds of things to unlock for Allah's sake.

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The twitch crowd who thought they were buying a 3rd person-roleplay-shooter are not gonna be happy untill they get thier skills. So, give them all thier skills/items/armors whatever. Then remove them from the rest of the game they dont give 2 rats asses about. Seperate PVP only from RP characters. I'm sure I'm not the only mainly PvE character who would pvp more if I were only facing other PvE characters.

Man you must have your ass served to you on a gold plate by these 'twitch gamers'. It's like you some sort of hidden agenda against them.

Seperating the community is NOT a good thing. With your ideas, you would simply destroy GW. Glad you're not head designer.

- Mark Iradian

Red Sonya · Aug 30, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

If you want to unlock things faster, play in the random pvp arenas. I've made 100x more faction playing in random 4x4's than I ever made trying to get in groups for HOH or my asinine guild that rarely GvG anyways.

Any good guilds out there that actually GvG everyday???

I'm available

MarkyX · Aug 30, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

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Originally Posted by Red Sonya

If you want to unlock things faster, play in the random pvp arenas. I've made 100x more faction playing in random 4x4's than I ever made trying to get in groups for HOH or my asinine guild that rarely GvG anyways.

Any good guilds out there that actually GvG everyday???

I'm available

Not really. 4 minutes for 20 faction?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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